CutesySylveon.8290

Nice story, bro. I'm sure that totally happened. Oil doesn't get disabled because you just die when using it until it gets destroyed, and you can't even disable defensive siege unless it was placed outside or so close to a ledge that it gets destroyed by ranged attacks anyway.

Now who's being bad faith? Shield Gens pulse stability and are often protected by Ventari bubbles, and by trying to deal with them, the main siege is still busting through the walls. They're a huge problem that nobody wants to talk about, and disables at least helped against them.

I don't think it's strong either, irrespective of RF. It's a gimmick that doesn't really matter for something like WB. In a 1v1 situation, you can just stomp normally. In an outnumbered situation where the stomp doesn't work, you want to do damage to stop any potential rez, which Heaven's Palm doesn't do.

I gave you a good faith argument. Bubbles from Shield Gens stop all ranged attacks, including Arrow Carts. What do we do in that situation?

They were a good design because they had potential to stop or slow larger groups in meaningful ways in order to buy time. The strong potential of their optimal use was offset by the litany of ways to counter them.

Any Ventari Rev could protect a piece of siege almost indefinitely, and 2 shield generators could have 100% uptime if either has alacrity. You were also revealed when throwing Disables, so if you were on guard, you could react to the toss, especially from a distance. There was 0 reason to be shut down for extended periods of time by disables. Spreading siege out to be out of range by one disable also drastically reduced their effectiveness. At LEAST let us disable Shield Gens so we can actually do damage to siege with our own siege. Shield Gens are some of the most ridiculous pieces of equipment in the game mode. And if we can't disable rams and catas, make the item be unblockable. It's absolutely unreasonable to nerf the tool so much when it already had so much counterplay without making it more usable in its current iteration. If you aren't going to revert it, make it possible to get use out of now. Heck, make it double cooldowns on siege skills. SOMETHING!

You already have a port with RF because F3 gets reset, which also gives stability along with working with almost every trait that Heaven's Palm would work with and more because it interacts with Virtue traits. Finishing downed enemies isn't exactly an issue WB has because of how much damage you can dish out, which is more than enough considering you recharge F1 and F3 with RF. F2 already has evade frames with healing and potential cleanse tied to it and it's 2 charges. The only specific thing Heaven's Palm can say it does is stomp and CC; RF is better in pretty much every other way besides cooldown.

Even if the evade lasted the whole duration, it'd still be useless because you get much more defensive use from having all your virtue cooldowns reset. Evades also do not pass barrier skills while invulns do, and resetting Justice would give you stability to get past them after its reset if you didn't just walk through it with RF.

The moment those groups start using alacrity to chain Shield Gen bubbles, you're screwed. Even Arrow Carts can't get through the bubbles, so what siege will be of use? Ballistas will only be possible if the enemy group misplaces their shield gens to not be blocked by the bubbles as they protect siege in LoS of the structure. At least before you could try to disable the Shield Gens to let your own siege damage the attackers, but without the ability to disable, you can do quite literally nothing beyond throwing yourself at the enemy, which will end as predictably as you'd imagine if you aren't running close to equal numbers. Small groups aren't what anyone is concerned with when the biggest gripe, by far, is boonblobs rolling up with little to no means of stopping them, and this change took away yet another tool to aid against them.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, revert this change. It was already near impossible to get a disable off on groups chaining bubbles, but now it's not even an option anymore? Now I have to just sit and watch the shield generators keep bubbles on their siege forever with enemies not even bothering to protect the Gens? Doing extra damage to siege doesn't matter if they're being protected by bubbles that give stability and block everything including Arrow Carts. You already got rid of structure invuln, now without disables, how am I supposed to give my server a chance to respond to a blob showing up to anything that doesn't have 2 walls to get through? Please, revert this change; nobody asked for it.

Which is not hard to pop. You're more likely to be denied by Bubbles of some kind, but that's no reason to not throw them if the enemy isn't holding Rev bubbles or Shield Gens up. Smart groups spread out catas to prevent that but getting 2/3 is better than letting them all yeet for free.

Another thing people forget is to use things like Disablers. I cannot count how many times we've had several defenders holding off an objective that refuse to use Disables, making mine extremely crucial because it could be what buys us enough time. This is also why I cannot stand Shield Generators because teams that chain bubbles with alacrity on siege with Ventari bubbles covering the Shield Gens is quite literally impossible to stop without a similar sized group. But yes, use Painter Traps, Supply Traps, and Disables. They're extremely useful.

That was also unblockable. Big difference.

This is incredibly naive. Anet has shown time and time again that they have absolutely no idea what they're doing with class balance. During the Tempest showcase back in the day, the dev playing had to turn on godmode to keep from dying during the stream. They said there would be frequent balancing done after the Feb 2020 butchering patch, yet it was short-lived and were back to the same old sane old. Anet might have final say with what's in the patch notes, but they don't have final say when what they do creates such negative sentiment that players abandon the game and stop buying. If Anet makes the game so unbearable and miserable to play to the point that players stop playing, then they are absolutely obligated to do things as the players subjectively feel is right. If they want boonballs running around and we don't, then we stop playing and either they address that or the game mode dies and less players look at the gem store.

Can you give some examples and their strengths over the two the OP talks about?