wisprr.4612

I would not call this a strictly WvW thread, since as I originally posted I never wanted Alacrity for any game mode, and I consider that update as a whole a nerf to Scourge capabilities, I would love nothing more if Scourge simply did not have Alac and things went back to the way they were before it. And thank you everyone, a lot of really good points and discussion here, and I have to say I agree with the entire Boons flavor of the month, Necro as a whole has always been weak when it comes to boons, and I'm good with that, even with Harbinger which is boon-centric there is FAR better classes when it comes to boons. Then we talk about Scourge, after all the changes to it, wasn't it at a good place? Why can't we find a good place for Any class and leave it well enough alone, just making minor adjustments as needed? Instead of having massive changes and saying "oops", then completely gut something because it was over-done? I mean, Scourge Alac is far from the first time this has occurred, it is just really recent and a really good example of it. I've also heard that Scourge is dead in WvW because of this, AND they did it right at the start of a WvW week? The hell! Really hard to not feel singled out by something like that. I even completely scrapped my Scourge Alac build that I had tailored for WvW and said forget it all together, I'm just done with AlacScourge. Then I turned around and made a Core Necro WvW build because I was sick of all the changes, even slotted my Sylvari Plant Turret ultimate which is always fun, and has not been changed since release to boot. I think I might be seeing more Race Skills being used in PvE these days too maybe, probably because people are sick of things changing and having to fix broken builds. As for Scourge Barrier, I don't think it was ever broken personally, though maybe lessen how much it affects other players? The thing is, Scourge does not have a second health bar like Core Necro and Reaper does, so it helps to compensate for the lack of that, and is capped at 50% max health but can also be used outside of shroud. The other downside to barrier, is it is based off Healing stat instead of just vitality like Shroud, so to be effective you want 2 stats instead of 1. Anywise, thank you for all of the insightful and very valid posts!

A lot of good points here, thank you all. And I am reminded multiple times of something I hold dear to my heart, "If it is not broken, then don't fix it". To me as a long-time player it feels like ANet (and other companies too) struggle with proper balance, oh oops that's to powerful, then massive nerf, opps again have to fix that. So I really do not get it, why not get things to a nice balance and then just call it good from then on? Because it feels like they waste a Lot of time and effort changing things and then trying to balance the changes, time and effort that can be spent on other things? Or hell, give some employees payed vacation for a good job lol! Similarly, I can not count the number of times I have stepped away for a bit, and return to find every single last one of my builds completely broken, sure bringing in new players is important, but is that not a deterrent for old players to return? I wonder, how long did we go with no big changes to Scourge and everything worked just fine? Then all of a sudden, lets nerf Scourge and give them alacrity that I never wanted as a necro, breaking some of the Scourge's core mechanics in the process, then a few months later, alright, changing Alac to Vigor?! Vigor!! WHAT? So I got nerfed in order to get Alacrity i did not want, and then they slap me in the face by changing Alac to Vigor in WvW and PvP. It just feels like a massive insult to me, as if someone asked what is the most useless boon we can give Scourge in competitive play to replace Alac with. So I'm going to ask, hey Anet? Can you PLEASE find a nice balance for Scourge (Necromancer too really, and all the other classes while you are at it) and Just Leave It Be? It just feels like my chain is getting jerked around much more often then is needed. And it is understandably frustrating to me and apparently many others. So please? I don't need Necro to be the most powerful, just for it to be in a good place and left alone. Ahhhh, what a dream would that be?

O.O Really? The latest update for WvW....... le'sigh, It was decided to both nerf barriers and completely remove all alacrity from WvW and PvP? >.> I really sincerely hope I am not the only one wondering what the Devs are doing. How about this instead, give me back my 20 sec shades, and just change Scourge back to before they had Alacrity all together? Ever since that update I have detested Alacrity, all the non-necros telling me i should run with Alac cause it increases everyone's DPS, nevermind the fact if I switch to a DPS build I put out Far more damage then the alacrity gives! Oh my goddess, what possessed anyone ever to give necros alac?! As a Necro main, i have never needed or cared about alac, ever, you can keep it, especially if it means necro and scourge in particular does not keep getting nerfed. Not once did I feel like getting alac was a buff, in my play it just felt like another nerf to me. Am I the only necromancer main that feels this way? Are there other necros out there that have similar thoughts? Are there Scourges out there that would trade every single drop of the dwindling alac to get back what we had? Please someone, anyone, tell me I am not insane here! Or at least that I am insane, but some peeps agree?

@Kageseigi.2150: Have various kits available with different functionalities would be a lot of fun too, I really like that since it does not limit the possibilities to just this idea, it can also be used to add other things as you suggest. And the traits is a really fun idea, it would be like the Daredevil replacing the evade with something else, give players the option to customize how certain core mechanics function for that character. @Antycypator.9874: That is rather similar to @Kulvar.1239's idea above, making it something like a replacement for Steal, I really like the addition of disabling weapon skills, hell, along that vein that would solve some issues, make it a toggle like Kulvar said and disable /all/ skills periods, so you would have to toggle it off before attacking, or it gets dropped if you take damage as usual. I'm a little leery about about the duration and cooldown since it is intended for OoC only, but that may be necessary to balance it properly. I'd also refrain from the movement debuff since being on foot at this point already limits speed a great deal, but if all skills are disabled that would include signet passives and make it difficult to receive boons. As far as not staking with 'combat stealth' that is a must, in fact, I think I'd be a bit more heavy-handed on that one, and if the character gained combat stealth the 'prowling' would be canceled completely. And that just gave me another fun idea, incorporating 'class mounts'. They already have an Engage skill to go directly into combat as well as ability to dismount ending the effect, and you can only have a single mount active at any given time, plus it completely replaces all weapon and utility skills, so the mechanics already perform a lot of the functions we have mentioned here. It also controls Health and evasion gauges and you get dismounted after a certain amount of damage. So basically what I'm thinking for this one is have very low health that drops the effect if it goes away, it can be slotted in the quickmount thingie, no speed bonus for the thief like other mounts, just the stealth-like-effect. Plus it would be fun for other classes to get something special for them too, depending upon the flavor. Not to mention, mounts are intended for travel just like this idea, and primarily OoC like we have been talking, not to mention anything that disables mounts would also disable this, making it much more controllable in areas that are not intended to have enhanced movement.

Another simple solution to the hazards of using it against other players, is that plenty of skills work differently in their PvP version. Something like this is primarily intended for PvE where other players don't have to worry about it and it is against NPC enemies. It would be very ineffective in PvP matches no matter what, and in WvW it would be nice against the NPC mobs and just exploring, but when fighting other players it would actually lower the effectiveness against them. So why not just have the PvP version be combat stealth, and PvE out-of-combat? @derd.6413 && @KrHome.1920: I am sorry, but I have felt the need to report both of your posts, if you desire to continue posting in this thread I would greatly appreciate it if you remain on topic please as I have previously indicated repeated times. Derd, I let it slide once, but between your twos' disruptive posts this thread has degenerated a great deal into something that is drastically off topic. I would like to thank all those whom have actually read the posts and point out things that were clearly stated to those whom obviously either chose not to read them or they simply ignore what they have read. I am particularly appreciative for all the wonderful ideas people have come up with, you all make some really great points that help to flesh this idea out. Finally, if this thread can not get back on topic, and I mean immediately after this post, I'm just going to ask a moderator to please lock it. If there is something you dislike about the idea, great, I Want you to contribute, however, there is a very large difference between Criticism and Constructive Criticism, the former of which is never welcome anywhere on the forums as it invites bickering as demonstrated above. Alternatively, I love constructive criticism, it's great that people don't agree upon everything as it helps to give fresh ideas some may not have thought of, only making whatever stronger in the end. So please, if you can please only post ideas on how to implement this or ways to shore up shortcomings, it would mean the world to me. Thank you.

Heh, holy hell, they actually have what we are discussing here in a very limited bases in-game already. I just did S4, Kourna, Forarmed is Forwarned, I won't go into too many details to avoid spoilers for those whom have not done it, but it has proximity, and it has something we have not mentioned but would also be perfect, it raises the chance of detection when you are moving. Something else from that that would be awesome, and is already setup, is certain creatures have cones in front of them that auto-detect you. From a coder's perspective it would be easy pleasy to replicate the same exact thing on pre-existing creatures that make sense having it, such as guards, canines, etc. That would be such an awesome feature to have on Krytan Drakehounds, considering they are literally trained to find things. I thought of another possible way to do this also, it's be possible to have a Thief Kit skill that replaces all weapon skills, like the ones Engineers have, hell, you can already get Whisper Disguise Kits like that that anybody can use, and use grants a brief period of combat stealth. @derd: I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions? Everyone: I would please like to remind everyone, please stay on topic. I'd appreciate it if people refrained from posts such as "this is great" (you can simply thumb this up to denote such) as well as "this sucks" (this is a suggestion thread for adding a feature, thus giving a list of reasons /not/ to add it is the exact opposite and as such you could not be more off topic, on top of which it is inflammatory which is against forum usage policy which you had to agree to simply to post here. In addition, only the Devs decide what goes in or does not, I personally find it quite insulting to them when players state "this has to go in" or "this can't go in", I did very clearly state this is something me and others I've spoken to would enjoy seeing something like this.)

@Kulvar: Technically, the Thief is the Ninja class, in beta it was one of two (guardian the other) new classes based upon GW1 classes loosely. Also, I was later thinking it could also be implemented by replacing the Steal Command (is that F3? I'm a leftie so rebind all my keys), so I really like that idea too. Goes to prove the point there are a LOT of ways to implement something like this, and I know I'm not the only sneakie-sneakie character out there that would love to see something like this. @rdigeri: You are quite correct, and exactly that crossed my mind, and yea, Druid Glyphs came to mind as well. For balance purposes it would need to be able to do something in combat. For personal purposes, I would be more than happy to give up a combat skill to have something like this was a point I wanted to include, even giving up my elite skill which is a character's most powerful. And that is something else you make a good point at, literally all of the mechanics needed to make something like this happen already exists in-game. I'm not saying make this happen now, but it is something I have like to see occur since day 1, but the devs don't know our feelings unless we speak up. @DeceiverX: Yes, exactly, thank you so much for posting, this is just a very rough concept that needs a great deal of fleshing out, and the Devs would need to, but that doesn't mean we can't suggest possibilities, and the more player input there is the better, since they get our experience as well as there own. Everyone: Thank you all for your posts and great ideas, thank you more for remaining respectful. One of the many things I love about GW, our community tends to be much more respectful and mature towards each other than many other communities. Please, keep the posts coming if you like this idea or have suggestions on how to make something like this work. The Devs will do what they need to, but again, doesn't mean we can't lighten the load a lil bit for them.

Disclaimer: Yes, I'm completely aware this has the potential to start a flame war, so please stay on topic and only post comments of how to implement something like this. It is not our place to decide what should not go in game, that is for the Devs to choose or not. Rant: It drives me up the flipping wall how the Engineer Scrapper literally has the best stealth skill in-game, and they got an elite Stealth well before Thief did. Futhermore, if you are clever, yes, you can keep stealth up constantly if you don't attack, buuuuut only if you have a flipping rifle equiped. The hell, because a rifle is more sneaky then say two daggers? Or hell, even two pistols?! I have been dreaming since forever that Thief would just have something as simple as an elite skill that you push once, it stealths you, you stay stealthed until you enter combat, and then it drops. That's it, if the devs wanted to make it more combat relevent give the player 3 secs of stealth at the beginning of combat. From a programmer's perspective, I can think of multiple ways to implement this easy pleasy. As for other mechanics, using a gathering node drops you from stealth, but if you have the Stealth Gliding mastery unlocked gliding wouldn't. You'd also drop stealth when mounting or interacting with things, as normal. Technically the skill wouldn't even need a cooldown, just lock it's usage in combat. (Think of mounts, there is a sword across them when in combat, can literally do the same exact thing.) If you broke stealth outside of combat, give it like a 5 sec cooldown. Hell, if they really wanted to they could make a signet and just having it equiped generates the effect. As for the Stealth itself, there are plenty of buff-like-effects that have no timer on them, just copy and paste Stealth, give it a different name and icon, and write it without a timer while keeping all the normal interactions stealth has, such as reveal or what not. Call it Prowling or something. Wrap Up: There is a great number of possible means for implementing something like this, and when/if they eventually come out with Cantha, I would love to see something like this for a Ninja specialization, and I sure as hell don't mind giving up an elite slot to get it. (Personally, I detest thief elites, Thieves' Guild is by far the best and I get /really/ sick of being forced to slot it in almost every build.)

Personally, I can think of a few other ideas for solving this kind of abuse in PvP/WvW. I don't play those myself, but from what I've briefly read a few ideas have come to mind. 1: Rangers have an Opening Strike function that limits the frequency of how often they can do a larger hit in a single combat. Something similar could be implemented for Backstab in PvP environments, hell, a lil icon showing that you can backstab would be nice in all games modes. 2: In a similar fashion, placing a global cooldown on either stealth after it drops, and/or the backstabbing would mitigate this behavior. Notes: The (problem?) of the above two is they would not prevent it from occurring in the first place, not certain if that is good or bad, but I've heard with the advent of mounts, in particular certain ones, severely outclasses thieves in WvW in several aspects, and we don't want to make them useless, things need to be balanced. And that is something else, in my personal experience Thief stealth in combat is a joke, but again I'm a PvEer, I just don't like the idea of making the class weaker, my perspective is balancing it, not nerfing which everyone hates anywho. Another alternative, much more in the style of GW is implementing countermeasures. In GW1 that's how they use to deal with imbalances instead of nerfing. Deadeyes have the only elite stealth skill for thief, and it removes Reveal. I hate this, because I don't know if I have ever been revealed, and if I have I simply didn't notice due to the /very/ short duration of stealth in combat normally. There /really/ should be more ways to reveal things, something serious. What if Guardian had a trait where instead of granting Aegis (which would also counter this kind of attack) they pulse reveal instead? Necros already have a countermeasure of sorts, the major trait that when they hit 0 health they auto go into shroud. I'd also think it would be slick if Rangers had a trait or signet where they could see enemies in stealth the same exact way you see an ally in stealth. They could still be snuck up upon, but for the perceptive player they'd have plenty of opportunity to spot an incoming thief. Elementalist water fields could have something like a "mist" effect that again shows enemy stealth same as ally stealth, and mesmer stealth field skill could reveal enemies that enter it. I could go on all day about things like this, there are a lot of cool possibilities. That's another similar idea, there is the Stability buff, why not have a Sentinel buff that negates or reduces backstab damage? Edit: Dave makes a very good point too, that would be kind of nice actually, especially for PvE, flipping dump backstab from stealth and make it defensive instead, and to bump thief DPS just give them a static bonus to damage from flank and rear like Rangers have from a trait. Makes a hell of a lot more sense from Thief than it does ranger. Hell, throw in ZDragon's idea where it's transparency effect that does anything defensive, that would actually solve a lot of problems.