SPESHAL.9106

People are overlooking some macro issues. Invisible traps are not available to all. Plus, one problem constantly in these games is balancing stealth/invisibility mechanics where there are much more limited avoidance and counters to animations, cast times, etc. If you look at the other profession with traps - Ranger - they are not nearly as oppressive which is ironic because you could easily argue that traps are more iconic to a Ranger theme class than a Guardian. In fact, Rangers had them BEFORE Guardians. Thus, to give Guardians the more oppressive traps is illogical...or at least should clearly signify that something is imbalanced when one can faceroll with it and the other is extinct using traps. You can argue it's less of an issue with experienced players who have better intuition and experience, but that still requires a player "cheating" and knowing the spec ahead of time by the icon...not from actual gameplay and countering actual animations. When you also factor in that most of the playerbase isn't experts, you've basically allowed only ONE spec to have viable traps and ignoring toxic gameplay to many. It's totally illogical balancing thematically and practically. If DH is not viable at high levels, then people shouldn't be mad about it being nerfed...or...they should be supporting buffs....but nobody is wanting buffs...which indicates the real motivation behind anybody using that spin is just wanting to continue to easily faceroll new players with toxic gameplay.

With countless builds and profession variables now, it's impossible to have 100% parity and balance....especially when all the sPVP is 5 man capture a node style. Thus, expectations have to be such that there will always be outliers. One could argue that guardians were the biggest outlier in having the ability to spec for everything...and they will likely still have that outlier status. However, a few more builds and support options/synergies may result from these changes, so it's important to digest the changes fully and actually see what happens after a few weeks. Overall, I think Anet balancing is better than in the past. There will always be head-scratching things and legitimate criticisms, but I'm not seeing anything worthy of gross negligence at this stage. Maybe some of the thief and engie stuff could result in unintended outlier behavior, but not likely at initial glance.

In addition to my previous post, you can notice another way the community primitively jumps to conclusions. When you create a conquest map AND have maps with different objectives/buffs/etc, people tend to just focus on the big team fights and synergy. However, if you don't also have professions with roamer roles, you have major problems too. Thus, you have to look at EVERYTHING. Do guards synergize too much with necros on point? If so, is that intentional because their roamer roles are less than other professions? Are certain roamers too strong such that other professions have NO OPTIONS to either synergize on point like guard/necro or be a roamer either? Frankly, if you use the same primitive logic most people use for complaining, I could argue that professions are OP that run zerker amulet yet are still be bunkerish due to excessive defenses innate with the builds/traits/utilities. You can't look at things in a vacuum though. There are three ways to make other builds/professions more viable - 1) give them equal synergies like guard/necro on point, 2) give them equal roles as others as roamer, or 3) give them hard counter abilities to either of the prior two roles but also certain weaknesses of being countered hard too. The problem is that some professions like guardians have access to just about any role, so it's not surprising that they are the most played. This needs to be fixed by either allowing other professions to do the same or nerfing guards ability to spec for anything. The other issue is that they made some professions much better at 1v1 and mobility than others. You will ALWAYS have imbalances in the game and complaints if certain professions are MUCH better at 1v1 and mobility than others...plus can even run stuff like zerker amulets with little trade-off. This should be fixed and will allow many more professions to be viable builds for other roles. The third issue is that they only allow 2 man premades in normal ranked pvp, so when they create a profession that synergizes so well with one other one (like guard/necro), then it gets overplayed and OP just because they limit things to an arbitrary and illogical 2 man premade at most. Fourth, even when you can premake a full team, you have to make sure that the map and synergies between builds don't put too much emphasis on certain team fighting roles for professions and that both roamer/team fighting roles are available and viable for professions. Simply changing objectives and rewards for certain things on the map can totally alter what people perceive as the OP professions.

Most professions have combos and builds that can lead to high burst. Few can spec that way and ALSO have 100% scaling immunity defenses PLUS blocks PLUS extreme mobility PLUS low cooldowns PLUS heavy armor PLUS perma condi mitigation.

Most of the "issue" comes from the synergy with guardians and shareable boons. There's a reason why guardians are far and away so plentiful and Necros are next...it's because of their ability to synergize on a point together and offset each other's weaknesses. Out in the open, there are tons of professions that don't fear a harbinger and actually kill it easy if it has no support. Like some professions, it's pigeonholed into certain roles. For example, you historically didn't see thieves often in team fights, but they could be dominant and carry the match in other areas. You can find professions/specs that deal even more burst than harbingers...from stealth and with more escapability/defenses...but they have other weaknesses and roles that limit them (i.e. not as much synergy in a confined area with guardians). It's not the 1v1 potential of harbingers or mobility that is OP...It's the fact that they created such a strong support class that synergizes with leg humping each other. This becomes frustrating in a conquest style match where you are rewarded for fighting together in a confined area and many of the big weaknesses of both core guards and harbingers aren't exposed. In the end, it's a tricky situation for Anet. If they reduce their ability to team fight on a node, then they become worthless compared to other professions for different roles. The irony is that they would then have to buff these professions ability to spec for different roles which they traditionally couldn't do. Now...Guardians actually have that ability to spec for any role necessary, so it either needs to be nerfed to have the same restraints as other professions...OR...they need to buff other professions to be viable in whatever role is required for conquest and the team makeup. Currently, you are forced into a conquest style pvp gameplay...PLUS you can only do a premade with 2 players. They made 2 professions that synergize the best for both of those restrictions, and one of those (guardians) can change to any role necessary if there isn't a necro. Thus, it's not really the builds and professions that are imbalanced. I'm sure their spreadsheets of value show things pretty equal overall...However, it's the nature of the gameplay and restrictions that aren't factored properly into those spreadsheets. Here's the main litmus test to prove what I'm saying. Of all the professions/builds, would you choose a harbinger or a core guardian for a 1v1 tournament? All of a sudden the primitive complaints become mute and totally different professions/builds become OP/popular when you simply change the gameplay of PvP to 1v1. You can say 1v1 doesn't matter, but it's actually a large part of PvP too. In fact, if professions AREN't balanced for 1v1, it actually creates even MORE outrage and problems balancing as a whole. The game has so many expansions/builds now that it's an impossible task to get all of them viable...thus, that should be the expectation. When one profession (ie guardian) can be viable with EVERYTHING, then THAT'S what should be nerfed.

You have to be fair and give time for things like WB to be corrected. You could argue they should have noticed the issue internally, but sometimes you need to let the playerbase figure out how to deal with certain specs before doing knee-jerk changes. At this point, they should see the obvious problems with TOO much mobility and TOO short cooldowns. I would be shocked if those aren't addressed. Harbinger was nerfed, and it's a feast or famine spec now. On it's own, a ton of professions/builds will love to go up against a harbinger 1v1...it's also an easy professions to zerg, so it's mainly a case of avoiding the one major CC/burst and countering the synergy with guardians. What they don't think through well is that they've made guardians so strong in all roles and have such synergy with necros that they can carry an entire profession to higher levels. DE and Mesmers have similar high burst builds like Necros and even stealth and 100% scaling defenses, but they don't have as good a synergy with guardians. Thus, in a conquest style match, you see people getting frustrated...not because of the high damage...but because the high damage is on the actual node and sustainable with proper support. A harbinger by themselves capturing a node is nothing for most professions/builds to worry about. If you have one timely CC break and condi cleanse, it swings the pendulum in your favor. If you have projectile hate, it's an even a bigger mismatch in your favor. If you get caught in the CC/burst, you will likely die. If you don't, it's hard to imagine how any responsible build and equal skill will lose 1v1. Personally, I wouldn't have designed Necros with this Harbinger feast or famine high burst spec. It can either be unplayable or dominant depending on your teamates, traits, utilities, etc. To fit the theme, Necros needed a build based on super high life siphoning...not raw damage...and be the best rezzing profession. Instead, they have some of the worst healing no matter what build you run and they nerfed the rezzing so much that other professions are far superior with no logic behind having that ability.

You are playing a feast or famine professions/spec. On its own, a harbinger requires a lot of finesse in positioning to avoid getting zerged or cherry picked killed by certain professions and builds that can take it out easy (i.e DE, Rangers, certain high burst stealth builds, and of course WB). You need to gain the intuition to anticipate certain things and position yourself accordingly. Otherwise, it will be frustrating. You don't have a second life bar and no 100% scaling defenses like blocks, evades, immunity, etc to counter a zerg. I don't play harb with the worm, but that's one utility you'll want to use to give you at least one escape from a positioning mistake you made or zerg. On the plus side, you have to realize what you bring to the group when you master the finesses and positioning. You basically can give everyone on your team a second elite skill by sharing boons from elixirs. You can also selectively go in and cc/burst super hard which can turn the tide of a team fight. Many people see the damage of harbinger and go in with the mentality of max damage. Unfortunately, it ends up being a losing strategy unless the rest of your team is superior and can carry your recklessness. On a poor team, that strategy is akin to going "all-in" in poker with pocket deuces. You will leave the table fast and frustrated. Everything revolves around positioning and applying selective pressure/cc while choosing the opportune time to share an Elite with your teamates. That's where harbinger's can "carry" a team. On their own, they are actually a spec with glaring weaknesses and vulnerabilities. High level players will know these things and make your life miserable if you don't master the finesse/positioning aspects of the profession FIRST. There's no traits, utilities, etc that will make you immune to certain weaknesses and give you ultimate sustain or long 1v1 fight superiority. Death magic gives you a bit, but if you can master the finesse side, I think the tradeoff is debatable. Good luck learning.

Let's all do a little side bet...who thinks there will suddenly be a DH buff upcoming since the trapper runes were nerfed, but NOT ranger builds that used it. It would fit the MO and guardian bias claims if the profession that exploited trapper runes the most gets buffed...whereas the profession that trapper runes were originally designed for (i.e ranger) and for a condi build on ranger that's extinct in virtually ALL levels of play...gets nothing.

The timing of the nerf is what's hilarious. It's literally been in the game for years griefing people and then...all of a sudden...they are like...it's so bad we need to nerf it 66%. They had to wait until WB was created and gave guardians yet ANOTHER viable build that's even better before FINALLY addressing a griefing build that should have been nerfed years ago. The runes were actually meant for ranger builds and were less toxic, but Anet priorities are hard to follow or justify.

To some extent that's true, but there are TONS of WBs despite the buff to DH. I doubt trapper runes hurt the sale of EoD. Every guardian wants to be even more OP than a trapper and play WB. Your logic is more applicable to showing the bias in another way. Once they had given Guardians yet ANOTHER highly effective build, they finally decided that the trapper runes needed nerfing after all these years. It's pretty comical if the timing is TOTALLY coincidental, but I think not. Again, I go by actions over words. Their ACTIONS say "we can't nerf trapper runes for years because it will hurt guardians with their griefing build against new players". Then...they make an even more obscene guardian build that is meta in high end pvp, so they decide "hey trapper runes are so bad that they need 66% nerfing"...we just didn't notice or care until now. Of course, they didn't think about it nerfing condi rangers who used trapper runes. A condi ranger with shortbow is essentially extinct, but that's never a priority over guardians. Their ACTIONS again say..."why worry about extinct specs using trapper runes when you can focus more attention on what guardian is doing much better with them."

Balance isn't as bad as you think. For the most part, the professions are balanced and bring certain strengths and weaknesses to the party. The problem is that they let one profession go overboard with viable builds that are superior to roles offered by other specs/professions. It thus makes ALL these other professions and builds look like crap. In fact, not only do guardians make other professions look like crap. They elevate professions like Necros who would be mediocre without them in team play. Watch tea pots video, if you got rid of the OP guards, it would take out the overperforming builds that make others look like crap and bring down necros indirectly too. Then, you would see much more parity and not this "one professions that does it all and has no weaknesses relative to others".

It looks like this patch was focused on WvW. Plus, look how long it took them to nerf trapper runes. It was to the point where I figured they would have too much egg on their face to do anything at this late stage, and that's why it wasn't addressed. Take a step back and realize how long trapper runes have been in the game...nothing has changed recently with EoD impacting trapper runes...yet NOW they decide to nerf it. It could be one of the most head scratching and slowest responses in history. All that being said...they did flip flop changes they made just last patch and intentionally address some things which speaks to their "priorities" of which professions to adjust. It won't make the people alleging guardian bias any less credible when you see them specifically mention things in sPvP and target them, but ignore others.

I play a variety of professions, but what's funny is that a necro has almost always had to be paired with a guardian to become meta...not vice versa...thus, the last thing a necro wants is less guardians. It's about being intellectually honest. I just came out of several pvp games where there were at least 4 guardians of different spec. If you think guardians are not seeing much more increased play than other professions (especially willbender) and/or there's no reason for it...I'm not sure an intellectually honest discussion is possible with you. BTW, there were far more underplayed specs and professions that warranted buffs...yet they chose guardian. You can see tons of extinct specs like core engie, core ele, scourge, etc. They even SAID they were buffing Reaper last patch, but you don't see it a FRACTION of what you see with Willbender. It's NOT just coincidence or EoD newness. It's throwing one entire profession into a realm of viability amongst specs that no other profession enjoys, and guardian is the LAST profession that needed to be FIRST in being viable across everything and be able to spec to do anything.

People can argue all they want, but the sheer volume of Willbender and guardians in PvP tells the real story... Actions > Words

You can...but it's not NEARLY as frustrating as being one shot out of the blue via stealth or traps...then, even if you can survive, you have to sift through AI, immunity, more stealth, etc. It creates a toxic experience for a new player and the people that run these builds do it mainly against new players for this exact reason. Yes...experienced players after many hours can deal with the burst and know the weakness and get better intuition, but that's a ridiculous "ask" of new players. I guarantee you that mesmers and trap DH have run off more new players than any other professions. I know it did many people I referred. Nobody should create builds that aren't viable in high end PvP but grief newbies.