Trianox.3486

Few months ago, I made a thread with rework ideas. Not all of them are good haha, but accro definitely needs "a bit" of a rework. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/89573-acrobatics-rework-ideas/?tab=comments#comment-89572

If we could at least gets bountiful thieft for ourselves, that would be decent, or even expected...?

Yes yes! Exactly what I mentioned in another thread. I totally agree with you. Paired and tethered to another support it works really well whether you go in shroud or not. And same for PvP, I strongly believe, from what I could experiment, that it opens up or shake the meta by enabling other classes much more diverse builds to be chosen! Both those heavy DPS builds, and also some of the weirder off-meta or open world builds doing funky things but that are usually too squishy or too one-sided. Had a lot of fun with a partner air overloading Tempest, who would support with reflect when needed, as well as with staff daredevil, core ele, power scourge, axe-axe warrior with offensive only traits/utilities aside from a single stunbreak, core ranger, and yep a few factal-looking builds. I paired with a condi Druid and that was a bit obnoxious tho, but weird, at the same time in terms of rotation, given we could hold point endlessly, we were not "that dangerous, unless someone or another pair really tried to stick in and forget about rotating. I tested both weaving in and out of shroud for bust heal, as well as for condi transfer and cleanses. The second option worked reaaaally well in duo. Loved it. I think it does shake the meta without invalidating previously sound options, so it just widens it.

And then someone else than the drive gets to push the accelerator just randomly.

I'll support and reiterate what had been said for preparations: Alll preparation should really loose their activation delay in PvE so that we can spawn them, and trigger as soon as we see fit, and not wait a few seconds...why? In the reality of PvE, you tend to move quite quickly between targets to the point where when your preparation is "armed", the foes are dead or you're long gone from that spot, especially given the thief mobility. Yet, there those preparations have so much interesting potential... Just never good enough in PvE simply because of the delay.

Agree, and I'm wondering for different combinations with Revenant, Druid, QB, but also Ele, Tempest, Scrapper for cleansing and stability, or actually any other profession decent at outputting cleanses and stability on demand. I can totally see a squishy support tethered to the Specter. On the practical side of Vidit's answers, I think this is where Rot Wallow Venom comes into play for leveraging damages. Another point is counter intuitively Chronomancer: with both providing quickness and alacrity, both can reduce their boon support duration and instead invest into DPS for Chrono, and Healing for Specter. Yet, stability would be a struggle. 😕 Could Well of Tears allow to bring in stability? It's a pretty pointless well at the moment.

Yeah, I did with Death Blossom. 😉 No, you're not stupid. 😃

As of right now, it works tho. That change is REALLY unfortunate whenever it will actually be implemented, because it would really have opened up build diversity, a whole different to way support your party, with new venom builds too! Well of Tears ...I don't get it. Specter has no power traits, so either we'd need to add in power traits, so as to allow a power variant of the Specter (similarly scourge is best players condi, but is actually fun in power variant too!). The well could pulse barrier to synergize with Rot Wallow Venom, or it could cleanse conditions, or allow for a bit of stability maybe? Right now, it feels useless even when specced for power damage, could the coefficient be too low? I can see a power Specter using Critical Strike and Accrobatics, or CS with SA, or else... with fewer wells, and more types utilities in their toolbar, but damage wise it would really be lacking, even for a support spec. It needs a power boost somewhere to open up support and off-power-DPS options as well.

Yeah, this is my concern, it's really far from being overpowered whether you look at AoE or single target. I'm all good tho if we have supreme 1-1 role, with a "decent" AoE role. That's relevant experience, thank you! I'm thinking that it's okay if it's not "TEH BEST", as long as it's close enough to other strong support, so that you actually have a choice based on personal (and or group) preferences when it gets to selecting your support. A bit like when you choose your DPS for an encounter, there are 3-4 top choices, but also quite a few really decents one not too far behind. In terms of support, the fact a single build/class is 100% top for a given situation is fair, but not if other builds are at 70-50% the effectiveness behind. But I can take a 90%! I mean, there will always be optimal builds for very specific encounters, that's the nature of things... but other options should be somewhat viable, reliable and usable too by tweeking the playstyle. I'm not a big fan of Druid, but it would be great of we had 1 top, and 3-4 viable support for each encounter, with then most other support lagging behind. But in reality, as of now, it's more like 1 top, and everything else underperform drastically. =/ Quite a few fixes yeah, and maybe some improvements too? Also wish Bountiful thief and such would work on Siphon to allies too...!

Adpt: Consume Shadows Leaving Shadow Shroud consumes all remaining shadow force, healing nearby allies based on energy consumed. Allies that are fully healed receive the rest of the value in barrier. Master, two choices: Amplified Siphoning Gain increased shadow force when hitting a foe with Siphon. Grant increased barrier when targeting an ally. OR Traversing Darkness Heal allies in the area around you when you shadowstep. Gain shadow force for each ally in the radius. Wells grant alacrity on their initial impact. Grandmaster: Shadesteps Siphon now grants you barrier when targeting enemies and revives allies when targeting them. Shadowstepping breaks your barrier and grants it to nearby allies. With the GM minor: Gain barrier when you strike foes with a stealth attack. When you apply stealth to allies you also grant them barrier. This effect can only be received once and will reset when stealth is removed Then, of course, you add SA Merciful Ambush (or Hidden Thief for stealth on Siphon) and Shadow Savior. Interactions: #1) Basically, Siphon on opponent followed by Stealth attack on ennemies pushes your barriers up, THEN you shadowstep #2.a) the step in itself with Shadow Savior AND Traversing Darkness allows for relatively high heal, #2.b) the step in itself break your barrier and grant it/transfert it to allies #3) Traversing Darkness allows up pump your Shadow Force if you land on your 3-4 allies, so then you go into Shadow Shourd, you can use 1-2 ability, then exit immediatly for a massive burst of healing again. Add in a rune for healing or barrier, and that's even better. Given all the short cooldown, you can rinse-repeat, WHILE doing condi-DPS, and of course you have your supporting Wells... and... yeah... pretty solid. I ran open world with a bunch of random people, I was almost maxed out of Alacrity, and they were charged up with heal/barriers constantly... and I'd just target either the weaker/squishier of them or focus on the ennemies with some attacks... and it felt really good. Numbers need to be run in a raid or fractal scenario to see if it still work decently. Conclusion? Yep, Specter works totally good for 5 man support parties when traited correctly. I never ran into an initiative issues, but my DPS were not great given I was still trying to catch the Well rythm appropriately. My only issue is the Shadestep radius is 240 only, so you have to have people stacking... which really... is the WvW and high end PvE ways most of the time. I "feel" numbers could be lower than some other classes in terms of support for 5 man parties? I'm not sure due to the limited testing, BUT the mobility, reactiveness and diversity of toolkit is actually quite solide, especially when you factor in the single target aspect to save one player, and the combination with Rot Wallow Venom. In terms of utility, I'd ditch out one well to add blinding powder, or an actual venom, or shadow refuge, or something of the sort... I tried various combinations, and it felt a bit better than going full Wells. Shadow Shroud do feel underwhelming on its own in the "supporting your tethered ally"... it's not that great... the "high impact" skills aren't that good, so you're not likely to do that many skills before jumping back out of shroud for the big Shadestep heal. So it does not feel optimal at all. Feels a bit like a wasted kit when used with Shadestep. But I adore the short cooldown, as it allows to quickly get back in if needed when you generate shadow force fast enough by being active enough... I only wished with had an attribute set for: Healing-Condi as major, and Expertise-Concentration minor, or Concentration-Vitality minor... and it would do wonder.

Wow, really fun to toy with. The autoattack chain on scepter felt really good to provide barriers, I didn't feel skill #2 and #3 were useful when targeting allies... Yet, reducing skill #1 quality/capacity would feel wrong too given it feels powerful enough without being OP. As the same time, given the limited pool, you have to rely more on autoattack, so it feels balanced, for skill #1, but #2-3 could potentially see an improvement or a bonus effect...? or simply make the barrier AOE? Open world, you can actually go for condi-dps with really decent results (tested in HoT maps), and when some random players pass by and fight around, you can substantially support him, and that feels REALLY nice. You can pump some heavy barriers up to more than 100% of a players' health. It fades quickly, so it's not OP, but you can really sustain someone's life (again, not 5 players, just one target, but actually really well I find.) So you remain in a relatively decent dps role WHILE providing support when required, altho not as good as if you spec into full support. Then, with SA trait line, you can go full support with shadow steps, while pulling your weight during the battle, so it's quite nice. Dagger/Dagger: I played quite a bit with D/D, and those Wells really add the mobility that DD misses... it's not jokes, it feels really nice. Not overpowered, just performing smoothly. In fact, it has a similar feeling to a D/D dodgy meme daredevil in terms of DPS with more mobility. You cannot spam Death Blossom indefinetly, so it's less of a meme, and more of an actual build... and that's a good thing, due to the initiatives limitations. Given wells are all dark fields, they allow for nice leeching bolt, which compensated somehow for the lost DrD GM traits DPS. So somehow, it feels balanced in regards to Daredevil. Sword/Dagger; Sword/Pistol: Somewhat, I could not find my rythm with sword main hand, but it was promising, as you could use Sword 2 for engage, and wells to keep in range of your foe. But, it was a lot of ports, so I traded wells for other utilities in the end. So a healing, power version was okay for open world, but with my test not ideal for tougher hero points, and at the moment, I can't really see a good PvP version of this. Pistol/Dagger: was oh my... quite solid, the wells put you on targets and conjure all sorts of condis, so then you can hit your dual skill and port-away, and you can port-in again, then port-out, it worked really well. Scepter/Pistol and Pistol/Dagger: worked really well together, very fluid. Scepter/Pistol and Dagger/Pistol: worked also very well together, also quite fluid, and even more adaptable in terms of mobility, I quite enjoyed those. Pistol/Pistol - I didn't find any particular synergy worth noting, was the most boring set up, and I guess that's fair too. Specter doesn't seem build for power DPS really, so... but I could imagine a sort of condi kitten-Trickery-Specter for PvP kinda working? sort of...? Not a strong build in any case. There are good synergies obviously between Specter and SA, kitten, ...and Trcikery feels a bit mandatory, which is a regret... If baseline Initiatives was the same as core thief, I would NOT feel forced to pick trickery, and would head for some more interesting builds, combining kitten and SA, or even try power variant with healing. For a very active/agressive gameplay: - Basically, with Trickery, and careful initiative management, I could do whatever I wanted, it was fun and fluid. - Dropping out Trickery meant I had to rely more on shroud, while shroud was harder to access to given lower initiative pool, so it became suddently quite clunky, I felt I could hardly "compete" in terms of the DPS OR healing race... A less active gameplay? - Playing without Trickery meant I had to play at a "slower" pace, which was "okay" but then DPS OR healing wasn't good enough... the bonus initiatives from Trickery and Siphon (on steal) really made a difference. Initiative pool Regenerating initatives through SA didn't really worked well for PvE, and I struggle to see how it would be really effective in PvP or WvW given you cannot burst as much with lower initiative pool. So bursting, going into shroud, bursting again, felt a bit off...? Because you have lower initiative pool, you don't need to spend as much time stealth, so in the end, it somehow works well conceptually... with Bursting DPS (altho smaller quantity) or supporting ally with barriers, then shround, then mini-burst, then stealth for 3-4-5 seconds max, then rinse-repeat was actually seems viable... but I struggle to compare the numbers. I however see it could be a viable playstyle if you were in PvP small brawl. Toying with Acrobacy wasn't ideal. Anyways, kind of a mixed bag. With limited initiatives, definetly, it does not play like how you would expect a thief to play, and maybe it's just about getting used to it, and maybe that's the intent. My worry tho, is that current skills seems to be balanced around the current pool, so if any nerf of condi/effect for skills would happen... It would suddently feel quite underwhelming... and just... weak. Wells Love them. Brilliant idea and concept, synergize so well with the thief other toolkits. The Shroud As of my limited tests, it feels "okay", or at least... not overtuned at all. Autoattack is better than scepter autoattack, but aside from that and the utility...? I love the idea, but not fully sold on its current impact/capacities. As of right now, my inclination would be to simply dip-in and dip-out to get specific utilities, especially skills #3-4-5. They're far from being "gaming breaking", but it's really nice to have this additionnal layer of utilities hidden under the shroud, even when playing solo. Then if playing with friends or allies, really nice too. I'd vote however to slow down the degeneration rate, to be able to keep it up a little longer if you do decide to support an ally that way... at the same time... I like going into shroud while initiative replenish itself, and going in-out would be really cool if cooldown was further reduced to 4-5 sec instead of 6.75sec. Anyways, my 2 cents.

I know venom have their uses, but they're not as good as most of the other utilities... I know, technically they can provide decent DPS when used with a group of allies, but solo they're lack luster. I'd rather wished we have something that works similar to Soulbeast vulture stance with maybe a 0.5 sec internal cooldown... But then again... It's not like they'd be overpowered when you start comparing to other classes utilities... Acrobatics: really like the ideas your have @saerni.2584

I had hoped that shadow shroud would be granted by stealth actually replacing stealth by the shroud for the granted initial duration of the skill or traits..., and along with it its defensive bonuses applied to the stealth allied. Synergies would have been amazing, now it's a new system on top of another, which I like too, but I too hope they didn't neglect all the potential real synergies like the one @Za Shaloc.3908 mentions! I'll be curious to see the ratio of healing between targeted allies and surrounding allies. I'd also look toward testing projectile interactions, behaviors with terrain or Asura (like how piercing bullets on Asura on close range actually go upward too fast avoiding targets standing right behind), and curious about shadow shroud gen/degen rate, and how that is or not affected by context.

I might be out of tune, so please excuse my question in advance.How is staff ambush free cancer? I remember cMirage being a really strong spec months ago, massive dominator with FB at their release. But it wasn't just the staff thing, it was many aspects. Now, about staff- is it that cancerous?Not only it is a slow projectile, with a full 1 second animation, but it's only only 3 condis of one stack each (relatively low duration too) with a specific requirement to activate.Now of course with infinite horizon there is a potential for higher damage, but it's not that worse either given the limited scenario where 10 targets actually matter, and where it is realistic to keep your illusions alive long enough, no? Lots of target is strong in OW PvE or some limited WvW scenario, but the intensity isn't really high.And, you talk of duel, but then refer to 10 targets... I don't quite follow the thinking there. =O Many other skills, even autoattacks for other classes, can be as dangerous as this one, or actually even much more. I feel I'm missing a piece of the puzzle in terms of how cancerous it can actually be. I mean, DH bursting 30 stacks of burn in 5-6 seconds is dangerous, but that staff ambush on mirage? It's not trash... But it's not exactly very good either. Were there specific ways it was being used that made it broken? My questions are genuine. I've been trying to build a Mirage for a few weeks based on either sword or staff ambush skills, and yeaaah I'm not getting really good results compared to other classes, models, approach.

Hi! I'm playing thief main, core, Daredevil and deadeye.I'll try to be as helpful as possible. First, we'll clarify some contextual elements. Then we'll look at types of thieves builds you're likely to encounter. And along side, suggestions and ideas.So first off, how to beat thief as a question is of course too short to be helpful. =) I know you know. It’s rather: how to beat/deal with X or Y build.They cannot do it all, each build have inherent weaknesses, so you must assess which builds you fight. There are many builds and each of them is as different as, let’s say, the difference between a Staff core ele, and a sword/focus weaver. Here two examples:Example #1) A D/D condi thief (a bit a meme build) daredevil usually have little to no access to stealth and will look like they dodge endlessly. However, aside from 1-2 skills that you really got to dodge or cleanse, their condition ramp up time is super slow. (4x slower/lower than fire weaver for example in terms of DPS). That sort of thief/daredevil abuses death blossom, but they’re not actually invulnerable the whole time. Right before they land, you can hit, and he won’t be able to avoid/dodge.It’s a meme build, very annoying, and the constant dodging makes the fight messy, and confusing. But Lotus Training only throws 1 stack of 2 second bleed, and 1 torment and 1 cripple, for again 2 seconds max. Lots of numbers and hits… but all tiny, you can more or less ignore that and aim to hit him when he is about to finish his death blossom animation. Example #2) A rifle build with Deadeye AND Shadow Art (both with a focus on stealth) usually use either Deadly Art or Critical Strike trait line for optimizing damage outputs. They’re not great dodgers, and are extremely squishy. Indeed, to build around those “infamous” “one-shot'' strategies (which is mark, rifle 2, rifle 2, stealth, death judgement), they need to be using stats with very little vitality or toughness. They sit at anywhere between 11-17k HP.Also, they don’t have Trickery line (therefore a small initiative pool), and therefore after a burst… they can’t do much for a few moments, use AoE on the area he used to be OR use channel ability. Channel skills will follow him through stealth.They don’t land many hits, but each hit can deal significant damage. Reflects do wonder (Tempest Aftersheet, Earth-staff3, Earth-Focus 4, Earth-warhorn 4), so do blinds. You can punish him to 50% HP if you reflect Death Judgment. Understanding thieves builds and their sequences of attack (combos or rotations) is very important. Aside from one example below where I'll go in detail, I'll keep it light as a start... and I’ll use generalizations, which are imperfect by definition to account for the diversity of situations, but hopefully it helps to see clear through that. IfMelee thief (D/D, D/P, S/D, S/P, staff) As soon as he gets in range for a hit (after a port sword2, dagger/pistol3, steal/swipe, dagger2)You could: pop an aura (ideally shocking, but other will be helpful too), then go for an AoE skill centered around your character. IfMelee thief (D/D, D/P, S/D, S/P, staff) As a weaver: Make it messier than the thief!So one good way, typically, is to rotate around your elements as soon as you can and alternating between your evade/daze skills, and your AoE.One evade, followed by an AoE, followed by a utility. Rinse, repeat. Your sword 2 (all except fire), are good: 2 evades (earth, and water) and daze (air), they do damage while being defensive as you know, and any melee thief will find that extremely annoying especially if you walk around too in “unpredictable ways”, as they’ll need to be spending their utility port, steals, AND their initiatives to keep up.A really good combo can be:Earth-Fire: sword3, focus 5, sword/focus3, -> waterWater-Earth: sword2, sword/focus3, focus 4 -> airAir-Water: sword2 (daze), sword/focus3From there, if you have the upper hand: fire, for sword2 and 3, then Earth (which brings you to the top again of the loop). If you don’t have the upper hand, you can still go for fire, but then make you you dodge, and wait to be back to Earth-Fire to re-engage.OR if you’re still not there, earth, for and evade on sword2, focus5 for the long daze. Arcane shield is a good stun break and defensive utility too against a melee thief, and of course don’t forget Twist of Fate as a weaver, but if you use Twist… MOVE while using it, don’t stand still.If he goes stealth, you have 3 options: Use any AoE available on the potential location OR centered around yourself. Keep doing your rotation as if he was thereDo an AoE and autoattack in random patternYou can out sustain a thief this way (barrier, heal, and evades) and disturb his own rotations.It will require way more effort from your part, but many thieves will just be completely lost in such a situation.Also, keep in mind that you want to avoid any skills longer than 3/4sec as D/P thief will try to daze to mess up your own combos, and long activation skills offer too many chances for the thief to dodge.Don’t expect to land everything, but some of your skills are very potent, and given thief generally low HP, you don’t actually need to land many hits to make him retreat, or even blow him up completely.He'll easily clear off bleed/burn as you have little cover-condi as you mentionned, BUT keep in mind that thief have 4 (main) ways to clean conditions and not all of them are reliable or that when using them, there are drawbacks. Also, you can re-apply burn and bleed faster than his condi cleanse capacities unless you face a daredevil that uses multiple ways to cleanses condi, and even then, there is a trick! On evades (daredevil), it's silly, but if you hit less frequently, the thief will struggle more. Basically, you put on some burns, then you move away for 2 secondes, he'll eat 2 secondes of burn, and for such low HP 2-4 sec can be quite significant. This is no joke. People always fnd that suggestion silly, but you can really take the control of the rythme of the fight this way unless you play against the most skilled thieves obviously.On stealth -> he'll need to be out of stealth to deal his damage, so altho he will clean it quickly once he stealth, if you keep reapplying, while avoiding his most dangerous attacks, you'll gain the upper hand after 15-30 secondes of fight. Trickery, using withdraw (heal) or Roll for Initiatives (stun break).. will force him to spend precious defensive skillsUtilities such as signet of agility (30 sec CD) and shadow steps (50 sec CD), 3 condis each. If facing condi thief P/DIdentify whether it's a daredevil (600 range swipe) or a core thief (1200 range steal), because both can be very slippery, but in different manners.P/D thief will port-in to you to use P/D3 Shadow strike, then blast 2X Repeater. And they’ll try to repeat that by stealing to you to port in, or using Shadow Step if they think they have the upper hand.So now, to specific tips/hints... 1) The second he ports-in:1.a) Dodge + daze. Using a blind can also work here. (If you are fast enough you avoid the shadowstrike if he is on core thief),OR1.b) Daze, do auto-attack and keep your other disabling ability after he used his break stuns such as Roll of Initiatives (50 sec CD) or his Shadowstep (also 50 sec CD). If you successfully disable him, you can try to burst, but Roll or Shadowstep are likely to have you miss your burst, so I would really advice for something that blinds and will mess up his rotation.(If you missed your dodge (1.a) or missed your daze (1.b) and he is already gone, to to step 2))(If he plays with Shadow Art, for bonus dmg on stealth and venom applications, and such, he's likely to steal, try a sneak attack with all the bonuses (venom trait, plus the leeching, plus maybe an actual venom skill) before doing Shadow strike, leaving you more room for a successful counter using reflect, or blinds, or else). 2.a) The second he ports-out using Shadow strike you can either port to him using a leap/port of your own, as the thief will be stuck out of "shadow strike" for a short moment, and will force him to disengage.OR2.b) The second he ports-out using Shadow strike, you run opposite direction and dodge, as aside from steal and shadowstep (especially if daredevil), there isn't many ways for him to get back "to" you and complete his full rotation for optimal damages.OR2.c) The second he ports-out using Shadow strike, you hit reflect. Why? He’s most dangerous skill is the flip skill on Shadow Strike (repeater) and it does not last forever. 3) Try to dodge or block Repeater and use range, because other ranged options for the thief are actually not that great, you can overpower the boy quite easily. If he uses stealth, go for AoE. And swap attunement for projectile negation or reflection to be ready for his next burst. P/D are quite predictable, they only really have one main way to deal damage, which is getting in range, using P/D3, repeater 2X, and rinse and repeat. 4) Sigil of cleansing to remove cover condi on attunement swap, or running either fire auras with cleanses, water with cleanses on regen, or utilities. To survive the condi burst, let cover-condi wear off before you go for your cleanse 5) Don't be fooled by the torment application. It's only 2k damage IF you move, 1k if you don't. The bleeding (or poison to a lesser extent) is threatening both because of the large volume of damage, AND in the case of poison because it weakens your heals, of course and as you know. Try to find a thief sparring partner to test out rotation (I'm playing on NA by the way), you can ping me. Or, find the build that you struggle the most against, make a thief and bring it to PvP lobby and use each skills multiple times on dummys and foes in the training ground, you'll see how certain skills can be interupted, countered and circumvent much more easily.Fighting a thief a always trickier because of his inate interactions. Also, Vallun did a great video on "how to fight thief" ( ) it's quite decent actually. =)