Warrior.5347

How to I delete a post outright?

Who? It> @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above, People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking. But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work. This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired. Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation. I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works. I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug. No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all. No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse. Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them. I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild. Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join. Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap. TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you. No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it. Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree. I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying. The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter. You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs. Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out. Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account. No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers. It is circular because I could then argue that the commanders were only able to execute their pro strategies that they invented due to the high level of skill of the pugs, which then reinforced their strategies and allowed them to hone their techniques which in turn was used to make the pugs more skiled as you say. what your saying certainly isnt the case for me or quite a few other pugs i know but ok. Regardless I still think its because BG has a high concentration of spvpers on it and those pvpers come to wvw as pugs. No, you are making it a what comes first the chicken or the egg argument when it's not. The Titan Alliance layed the ground work for WvW. It broke up the guilds and it's members became skilled and organized and out did other servers while educating and cultivating pugs along the way. Then as guilds carried BG to tier 1 and stayed there people became more WvW minded from guild members to pugs. So it became a synergy between guild and pugs is where I think you are getting confused. However, without good dedicated WvW guilds there would be nothing in WvW to speak of. It is evident in the rise and fall of servers through the years when guilds join and leave them. If all BG guilds left I guarantee you BG would be bottom tier. yes but when guilds leave bg, it dosent budge, so i dunno. The core never left, guilds have come and gone but the core never left. And yes BG has been #2 and #3 for a good few months when it was desperately looking for OCX and SEA coverage that JQ had more of. Who do you think brought you that coverage? The guilds and the politics that come with them. Pugs out number guild members that's a fact but it's the guilds that provide a focal point for pugs to rally. BG is talented in that they have pugs that can make adhoc groups and know what they are doing, but it became that way through guilds cultivating that culture. We provide the forums, we provide the team speak for pugs to join and follow commanders, end of story. You're never going to convince me, its that spvpers are on BG and they pug in wvw. This is what created this entire server, is pvpers and pvp guilds that come into wvw and are able to execute these strategies. This is evident when our own commanders and guilds join their servers and use those expertly conceived strategies against us. Their pugs are not able to execute. Regardless what does this have to do with this change, this change gives 0 concessions to anyone not in a guild or alliance, I guess we can all just get scattered to the winds and if you liked your server and the idea of the server, oh well the game modes not for you after 6 years of playing it. Real nice.It's quite obvious I'm not going to convince you of anything a long long time ago. It's the fight and pvp guilds that built the server obviously pvpers are going to pvp it's the whole point of WvW and pvp. Other server pugs don't have the same mentality and cultivation that BG has so it's harder and more time consuming to train and cultivate them, TC tried really hard to brand themselves and so did Maguuma, guilds have tried and failed which makes BG unique. The fact that BG is unique kind of makes it impossible to have fair and balanced matches right? So you proved our point, we need a new system. But my original point is if BG didn't have dedicated pvp/wvw guilds that attract other pvpers and wvwers pug or or not, it would be bottom tier. You as an individual is replaceable as a pug for BG.

It doesn't budge because it still remains having the largest population/most play hours. You ARE being disingenuous because you keep deflecting from this fact. We can't have an honest discussion regarding the design/health of WvW game mode overall due to your refusal to acknowledge this simple fact. It also barely budged because when it becomes open it gets flooded by bandwagoners who join the cycle of the core guilds training them and possibly making new guilds out of them to compete anew. This guy thinks pugs are integral to success and made BG T1 when they can easily be replaced. Its very delusional and disingenuous.

I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above, People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking. But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work. This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired. Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation. I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works. I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug. No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all. No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse. Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them. I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild. Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join. Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap. TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you. No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it. Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree. I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying. The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter. You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs. Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out. Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account. No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers. It is circular because I could then argue that the commanders were only able to execute their pro strategies that they invented due to the high level of skill of the pugs, which then reinforced their strategies and allowed them to hone their techniques which in turn was used to make the pugs more skiled as you say. what your saying certainly isnt the case for me or quite a few other pugs i know but ok. Regardless I still think its because BG has a high concentration of spvpers on it and those pvpers come to wvw as pugs. No, you are making it a what comes first the chicken or the egg argument when it's not. The Titan Alliance layed the ground work for WvW. It broke up the guilds and it's members became skilled and organized and out did other servers while educating and cultivating pugs along the way. Then as guilds carried BG to tier 1 and stayed there people became more WvW minded from guild members to pugs. So it became a synergy between guild and pugs is where I think you are getting confused. However, without good dedicated WvW guilds there would be nothing in WvW to speak of. It is evident in the rise and fall of servers through the years when guilds join and leave them. If all BG guilds left I guarantee you BG would be bottom tier. yes but when guilds leave bg, it dosent budge, so i dunno.The core never left, guilds have come and gone but the core never left. And yes BG has been #2 and #3 for a good few months when it was desperately looking for OCX and SEA coverage that JQ had more of. Who do you think brought you that coverage? The guilds and the politics that come with them. Pugs out number guild members that's a fact but it's the guilds that provide a focal point for pugs to rally. BG is talented in that they have pugs that can make adhoc groups and know what they are doing, but it became that way through guilds cultivating that culture. We provide the forums, we provide the team speak for pugs to join and follow commanders, end of story.

I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above, People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking. But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work. This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired. Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation. I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works. I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug. No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all. No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse. Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them. I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild. Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join. Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap. TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you. No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it. Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree. I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying. The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter. You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs. Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out. Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account. No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers. It is circular because I could then argue that the commanders were only able to execute their pro strategies that they invented due to the high level of skill of the pugs, which then reinforced their strategies and allowed them to hone their techniques which in turn was used to make the pugs more skiled as you say. what your saying certainly isnt the case for me or quite a few other pugs i know but ok. Regardless I still think its because BG has a high concentration of spvpers on it and those pvpers come to wvw as pugs. No, you are making it a what comes first the chicken or the egg argument when it's not. The Titan Alliance layed the ground work for WvW. It broke up the guilds and it's members became skilled and organized and out did other servers while educating and cultivating pugs along the way. Then as guilds carried BG to tier 1 and stayed there people became more WvW minded from guild members to pugs. So it became a synergy between guild and pugs is where I think you are getting confused. However, without good dedicated WvW guilds there would be nothing in WvW to speak of. It is evident in the rise and fall of servers through the years when guilds join and leave them. If all BG guilds left I guarantee you BG would be bottom tier.

I don't fear the change not going through, it will. I'm just trying to get better insight on claims of server pride and identity by people who are essentially drifters in their own server.

I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above, People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking. But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work. This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired. Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation. I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works. I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug. No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all. No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse. Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them. I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild. Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join. Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap. TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you. No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it. Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree. I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying. The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter. You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs. Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out. Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account.No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers.

I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above, People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking. But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work. This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired. Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation. I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works. I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug. No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all. No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse. Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them. I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild. Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join. Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap. TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you. No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it. Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree. I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying. The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter.You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs. You are lucky to be on BG, a winning server. If BG disappeared what would you be? Oh yeah a pug the same pug you have always been is what it boils down to. I wonder if you would sing the same tune if you were on Eradon Terrace, lol.

I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above, People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking. But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work. This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired. Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation. I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works. I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug. No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all. No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse. Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them. I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join. Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap. TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.

I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above, People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking. But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work. This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired. Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation. I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works. I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug. No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all. No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them. I'm not going to sugar coat it, your opinion is worthless because you still haven't provided any good reason other than "get good" and I dont socialize, I pug so I want to keep my OP puggers.

If you cared you'd join their guilds then you'll always be with them if you just like seeing a familiar face, well that's on you not actual people who WvW with a purpose. I don't see how planning around pugs is even remotely viable. Many games have died appealing to casuals because they are just that, casuals. I guess people just log in drop 20 dollars for a new outfit then stand around then log off, sounds like easy money, but not if you want to keep a game fresh and long term.

You are correct sir.

This graph was posted earlier in this thread by Anet Raymond, the driving force behind the Alliance revamp. Each column is the man hours(read activity level) of each server. Which columns represent which servers were not provided, except for the first column which we know is Blackgate. Maybe Blackgate has a better skilled WvW playerbase, maybe Blackgate has better commanders, maybe Blackgate is better organized. All of these things are debatable. What we know via this graph is that Blackgate spends more man hours in WvW than any other server, and that due to the population caps placed on servers, no other server has the chance to stack to the level of activity that Blackgate enjoys. Thus every server is outnumbered by Blackgate overall(Linked servers mitigate this somewhat, and individual times zones will vary, we're talking about overall). I'm not making an argument or stating my opinion, I'm just reading the data that Anet has given us. And after looking at that data for a very long time Anet has decided to do away with servers and give us a more dynamic flexible system. Very good explanation, like I said BG is unique and cultivating servers on that level has been tried and failed due to the population as a whole not being WvW minded to commit a lot of time or server caps as mentioned keeping out the full might of some guilds and pugs.

Where would these pugs be without the guilds to supply the commanders, the structure, the strategies, the organization, the siege and more anyway.

Can you elaborate as to why it doesn't cut it? I see wild statements made on something that hasn't even happened yet without any reason behind it. Perhaps that's the doomsday mentality that happens with any change. You want server cohesion because you are some lonely/antisocial pug/roamer. Parden my assumption since you mentioned "especially if you don't get into any", which I don't see why not unless you are just super annoying and headlined no guild wants you, thus you depend on a server. BG has a high concentration of spvp, players (good players in my opinion since spvp requires the most skill). For me personally, i feel like the wvw community is not one i really like to socialize with, and I feel this is true on every server I have seen. So once we eliminate the familiarity I have with the few people I'm ok with (removing server cohesion) and the fact that now I'm going to be forced to play with people of other servers (which will not be skilled spvp players on the whole), it will make wvw insufferable for me, because then I will be dealing with people I don't want to socialize with and whom are not all that great at pvp in my opinion. This will completely turn me off to wvw. Now i get it that people will simply say its because I want to win - Honestly I really just like playing with people who don't make very many mistakes when they play, as that affects my enjoyment of the game mode since its a team activity. You can call it elitism or whatever else but its just not enjoyable, and I like it that our unorganized pugs are so devastating due to simply having player skill. BG wipes plenty of times so I dont really mind losing, I wouldn't even mind if we get trounced but, playing with people i don't know whom will be of the same attitude of people i already currently play with and dislike, plus now they aren't all that great, its just going to turn me off to the game mode completely. I have seen BG wipe much larger squads, sometimes even multiple zerg squads that are 2v1ing and its not because "BG is stacked' that, thats occuring. Its because the people on BG are more skilled and they play a lot of Spvp. I get that you want to break it up, and maybe that will work, maybe it won't, but for me its going to be a huge downgrade in gameplay, and the real reason they want to break up BG isn't because it has premier coverage 24/7 (maybe this used to be the case, but it isn't anymore), its because it has a high concentration of good players that know what they are doing and other servers don't like it. One of the reasons I know this is true is because 2 of BG's top raiding guilds recently joined another server that we now fight against, and they continuously lose against BG Zergs, even with those top BG raiding guild commanders commanding the other servers zergs, even when its an even match in terms of zerg sizes, or if their zerg is slightly larger then BG's, the other servers are still wiping fairly consistently, all because the skill of BG pugs is simply higher on the whole. This is all the proof I need that its a skill issue and not a coverage issue. Frankly if 24/7 coverage was the issue and other servers are upset about BG's ability to get PPT's and thus the weekly scoring and server tier placement, none of that has to do with zvz which is all that people really care about in wvw. You don't even get anything for winning the weekly matchup against other severs. As a testament to how little they care about who actually wins the weekly matchup, this change to servers that they are proposing, will make the mechanic of which server is #1 all but irrelevant anyways, so it shows how little people care about this mechanic in general already, despite saying that the sole reason for this change is to break up BG's 24/7 coverage so that BG dosen't get all those PPT's and get rank 1 on the server leaderboard. None of this is the issue at hand, that people are upset about when it comes to BG, the real issue is the concentration of skilled players that nobody dare talk about, not that its ranked as #1 on the wvw scoreboard. I dunno what the solution is, part of me feels like they should just redo wvw completely, because i get that people don't like fighting BG. The flip side however is that making servers generic so that it becomes a non-cohesive empty (as in hollow) game mode like doing pve meta events currently are, + getting rid of all acquaintances that might not be in my guild that I am used to seeing and working together with, and now ontop of the fact that I will be playing with other guilds that I have fought against, some of which i absolutely disdain. + my impression of the fact that other servers are just not as skilled and ill have to play with players who make careless mistakes over and over, which gets old; from a selfish me point of view (as I can only speak for myself, but I have seen others echo my sentiments) it will make my gameplay much less fun then it currently is, and I just don't see the point of continuing playing once they change it. In this whole thing, you proved my assumptions right and still doesn't provide me with any reason why Alliances won't cut it. You just want to pug with other bandwagon pugs. In any case guilds and alliances will be matched up with algorithms to find players of similar skills sets. So ideally strongest players, guilds, and alliances get lumped in first then trickle down. So if you are pro you will be among to the pros, ideally speaking. If the pugs suck, well then join an alliance and be a lurker zerker. So discrediting this change because you fear nub pugs and no pugmanders is a bit selfish imo. No I'll be quitting thanks. I'm not trying to convince you to stay, I'm trying to understand why you are against the restructuring which boils down to I want to bandwagon with other bandwagon pugs. I edited what I wrote read why. I already know everything you are saying it doesn't warrant repeating. What you don't get is good players will be with good players vs other good players in the ideal restructuring. This is not going to happen, what will happen is the algorithm will fail like it has in spvp because it is too complex, and people will manipulate the algorithm and bandwagon into super alliances that nobody can stop anyway, so it's a waste of time and in there attempt to compromise they will make everyone unhappy. We shall see, because like I said you are making conclusion statements before the fact as if it'll be a reality before the actual experiment. As it stands even super alliances will have to contend with other super and rising super alliances, so I don't see the problem here. Sorry you wrote a big kitten essay to which both you and I summarized to one sentence. Bandwagon with bandwagon pugs and you want to bandwagon pug with known bandwagon pugs. Either way it turns all of wvw into a pve meta event where there is no point in winning for your server, there is no purpose to fight on a team, it's just one giant eotm map, that nobody cares about, that alone, more then anything else is enough to make me quit once removed. You won't even care if your guild does well in wvw because there is no shared identity. They might as well just turn wvw into gw1 alliance battles or gvg, If they make this change, because it's not for anyone else. You are making a lot of assumptions again. The server pride is now guild and alliance pride. Winning comes with prestige and bragging rights just like it does when guilds on other servers meet in a battleground. So why wouldn't guilds take pride in steam rolling another guild just like they do now? You mean it's not for you because you mentioned before you are a loner and don't want to develop relationships so I assume you wouldn't even know what guild or alliance pride is or will be. Sorry you couldn't get into bg it must not be very fun for you. I'm a BG native before you probably. I'm on the BG forums, if you want proof I'll holla in our chat box and kick it with my man Cruxic. Well I'm so glad that your wvw cohesion is limited to a couple of guilds only and the people In them, I can see you don't care about pugs or the people who come together that form a server. You'd rather have exclusionary wvw alliances that alienate the pugs which overwhelmingly contribute to wvw guilds success. Again you assume I didn't start out as a pug, I ran with every guild feeling out their commanders and members and chemistry before committing to one. When my guild isn't running I run with pugs, pugmanders, and other guilds. Pugs are important, there will be pugs in the restructure. You just want your set of familiar pugs. So I still don't see your point.